subbyupdates: opposing opinions

Sublunary Updates (

subbyupdates) wrote,
@ 2006-02-11 05:20:00

opposing opinions
Now, it's come to my attention that Sarah has posted a piece in her journal on one of her art sites requesting opinions on my request of her. Several people IMd me to mention that it wasn't reaching a lot of Sublunary fans where it was posted and asked me to post it here. She posted the following:

"I have stopped drawing for Sublunary since it's author does not wish to work with an artist and because I do not have the time for it right now.

Reena has asked me to not upload anything Sublunary related. Which I have deemed fair, if not a little strict.

However, she has also asked me to not upload any art of MY characters in their non Subby personas. Might I remind you all that Eekie, Cyan, Robyn, Cantor, FS ex. ALL exsisted long before Sublunary was concieved.

So, as I think she is unfair in asking this and she think she has every right, since seeing A picture of Eekie or Robyn would be too distracting... what do you think? "

Poll suggestions were:

"She has no right.
She has the right.
I don't know what to believe."

As my side has already been explained in the previous post, I'd like to post her side here, where Subby fans will actually have an oppourtunity to comment on it.

I will just say that I disagree entirely with the first half of the first sentence. I admit I do not want to work with another artist, but I never said I didn't want to work with her. I would like us to be on even ground if we ever continue the comic, as a personal relationship (whether it be friends or more) is more important than a comic. Also, I do not think I have 'every right' to keep her from uploading her characters, I simply asked. My side is explained in full in the previous post, as was the statement that I would work around this since she disagreed to it and didn't offer suggestions.

So here it is for Sublunary fans to have an opinion on as she wished, with both sides of the story. I'm not trying to invite drama, I'm trying to help her get a view from the fan perspective. As I already stated, I would work around her disagreement with my suggestion so as far as I'm concerned this is pretty moot, but she wants opinions. As always, please be civil in the comments, this isn't a flame war nor should it be. Simply state your opinion for her and if need be, your reasons why.

(29 comments) - (Post a new comment)

cloud_1_3_5
2006-02-11 11:00 am UTC (link)

Prickly subject... I get the feeling that you won't get a grand master solution from the fans on this, since we don't know the full background and every niggly detail that affects the situation (I know as well as anyone that it can be something seemingly stupidly small that puts a spanner in the works), but maybe we can at least suggest something that you two between you may be able to draw out to an agreed point.

So here goes my effort...

Would some sort of compromise be reachable? For instance, if Sarah were to continue drawing and uploading her characters, since she obviously feels it unfair that she should have to stop (and that is an understandable stance), but completely avoid alluding in any way to the plot, or even Sublunary itself? Since they existed before Sublunary, could the pictures not be uploaded in that context?

I'll add this to my 'think about while hungover' plan for tomorrow too!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

neverless
2006-02-11 07:14 pm UTC (link)

The difficult bit of that is that even the prints we sold at conventions could easily be said to be not the characters 'subby incarnations'. There is really no line between nonsubby and subby that can be made in art, since she was never a fan of doing the whole futuristic thing in the first place. Basically nearly everything drawn before this mess could be considered 'nonsubby' if she wanted.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

pacweebles
2006-02-11 03:11 pm UTC (link)

personally, i think it's not only fair, but good that you don't want to work with another artist. Sublunary is your creation, with Sarah, and bringing a third party in that doesn't understand all the underlying things would just be complicated.
and as to the question, i think it would not only confuse the end of the comic if she started posting pictures in an un-Sublunary relation of her characters, but it would also kind of rub in your face that you, not being the artist, can't post anything, which is unfair to you.
my proposed solution:
if she really wants to continue drawing pictures of her characters and publicisng them, tell her to get a different forum to do it. a devart account or her livejournal or something. it's a two-fold solution if the ways to depict them aren't related to Sublunary itself, which the site is, you know, involving. you could agree to link that forum to Sublunary fans, so if they ARE interested, they can see.
i hope you reach a solution, though.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	neverless 2006-02-11 07:15 pm UTC (link)
	That's what exists now with her two gallery sites on deviantart and ygallery. ut yes, the first half of your post are my feelings exactly. (Reply to this) (Parent)

katamanda
2006-02-11 03:36 pm UTC (link)

Mmm... well I think she has a point about her chars, but I can understand your side too. I'm involved in a comic between three people, which I co-wrote and am donating characters too. I'm saddened by the fact that i will be uninvolved in any of the art aspects (its soemthing I've gotten depressed over a few times, but I want the comic to be drawn because i love it so) but we're all still continuing to do our own orignal artworks alongside involving the characters.
Really I think you have the right to ask for this, but she also ahs the right to continue drawing her characters, its a hard decision to make really. I think i'm rambling here really rather than saying anything useful, but I think its something you two should sort out personally because of the difficulty of the decision and not involve the fans. I for one will not run squealing over whenever she posts a pic, she does have good art but I am more interested in hearing the story. ^^

(Reply to this)

	fyredancer 2006-02-11 04:23 pm UTC (link)
	Well, the entire premise of the poll is flawed. Based on what I've read, it seems like the two of you aren't communicating effectively right now. I'd recommend getting in touch with her again rather than "inviting drama" so to speak and getting the fans involved. (Reply to this) (Thread)

neverless
2006-02-11 07:17 pm UTC (link)

It's difficult when she goes out of her way to not be in touch with me. I was nothing but polite and asking her offers and trying to work something out...which she apparently took as me ranting and raving and whatnot. I really wish it didn't have ot come to the point where I'm forced to save convo's in order to later prove that I WAS being polite, reasonable, and mature, and didn't do half the stuff she accuses me of doing -.o

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	fyredancer 2006-02-11 08:12 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, I can see how that would be upsetting. It sounds like she's being pretty unreasonable right now. (Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	neverless 2006-02-12 09:45 am UTC (link)
	She's going through some stress and she's having trouble dealing with it, but I'd like for her to stop taking it out on me ^^;; (Reply to this) (Parent)

darkraiser
2006-02-11 10:36 pm UTC (link)

hmm....well...I think she could post Subby art she drew and made that wouldn't give away teh plot at all, cause If you are to finish the story by writing it (I hope you do ^0^ but i don't want anyone to do something that wouldn't make them happy) Because the people who veiwed her art would know what would happen, or get an Idea before having the Chance to find out from (if you do it) teh story.....Thats just my opinion ^^

-Darkraiser

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	neverless 2006-02-12 09:46 am UTC (link)
	But why should she be able to post Subby art if she dropped the project? I disagree with her posting Subby art entirly because she decided she didn't want to be a part of this anymore...so I don't think it's fair that she still contributes despite her decision to stay out of it. (Reply to this) (Parent)

wda_yagi_san
2006-02-12 01:27 am UTC (link)

I can easily understand both of your views in this problem. They are her characters and part of other stories she may want to start, but I'm sure people would flock to any art of the characters in any form simply because they were in Subby. I might have a sort-of solution, but I'm not sure if it would work. I think she should be able to draw the characters, since they are in other stories, but she should make it very clear that they are not the Subby versions of the characters. That may get annoying, though, having to say something like that every time she posts a new pic. But I think it would help. MOST of the fans would understand that she is not posting Subby art, though I know there would be some who probably have no idea about this problem in the first place simply because they haven't taken the time to learn about it.

I have no idea if this idea would work or if either of you even want to bother with it, but it was just an idea. I hope that whatever happens, both of you are happy with the reslut. ^^;

(Reply to this) (Thread)

neverless
2006-02-12 09:50 am UTC (link)

I agree with the first part of your medsage entirely, as that was my point of view.
The only problem with your solution is that unfortunatly it's incredibly hard to seperate the subby versions from nonsubby ones because any of the art she's done up to this point of those chars COULD be considered nonsubby...mostly because it's not sci-fi, since she doesn't like drawing sci-fi stuff much, and that takes out the difference between the nonsubby and subby chars, because there's no way to recognize without being told.

And most of these characters are only in one other story...and that's with me ^^;; Cantor and Cyan and FS have larger stories of her oroginal design, but the rest of her chars existed with mine in their original incarnations.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	wda_yagi_san 2006-02-13 06:04 am UTC (link)
	Yeah, like I said, I wasn't sure if it was worth the effort or even possible. Thought I'd mention it anyway. ^^; I hope you work things out. (Reply to this) (Parent)

Two cents

rae_squirrel
2006-02-12 02:41 am UTC (link)

I believe that it is perfectly reasonable to ask her not to post her Subby characters until you've finished writing. Especially as she does make money from said art and you do not. However, I also agree with wda_yagi_san 's suggestion that if she posted the characters in a non-Subby context that there should be something to let people know. It might be annoying, but it would seem to be a compromise. I know little of the situation, so I may be completely off-base, but for what it's worth, that's my two cents.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	Re: Two cents neverless 2006-02-12 09:50 am UTC (link)
	Thank you for your opinion ^_^ (Reply to this) (Parent)

pyrosdemonicus
2006-02-12 08:00 am UTC (link)

This is a tough spot. I don't think either of the answers work since it's not a yes or no question.

I think that both of you should have 100% control over what happens to your intellectual property (your characters) since you own then, created them, love them, ect.

I agree that it is a fair request to ask that she not post art of the characters, and I also agree that it would be fair if she refered them back. I think as far as Sarah goes she should have rights to her characters, but it never hurts to ask. It's up to her if she complies.

I get the inpression Subby has done a hell of a lot to hurt your guys' relationship. The character thing makes me think of a custody battle. Work something fair and reasonable out. Let Sarah have Eekie on the weekends (metaphorically speaking).

I adore the both of you. <3 Guys like you inspire new comic artists like myself.

~Pyros~

(Reply to this) (Thread)

neverless
2006-02-12 09:56 am UTC (link)

Thank you for your words. I agree that she has full rights to her boys, and thank you for saying that yes, I'm allowed to ask. It's nice to see someone accept that me asking something doesn't mean I'm demanding it.

And yes, it has hurt us a lot in the relationship. I wish sometimes we hadn't even done it, despite the wonderful fans.

I do hope we can work something out.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

	pyrosdemonicus 2006-02-12 10:04 am UTC (link)
	I wish you guys both all the best, you deserve it. You've been so great with us fans. I think it's us who don't deserve you. <3 Oh, and happy Valentines. I wish you much chocolate and red-coloured things. And if not, sit down and watch a nice sappy movie. I'd recommend "Angels in America" (which I just finished watching). Well worth it. Lots of love, Pyros (Reply to this) (Parent)

arcane_majesty
2006-02-12 08:39 am UTC (link)

I just wanted to say that I think its sad what's going on here. Even though half the characters are hers and half of the characters are yours, there must be some way for you to work this out. You obviously can work on the chapters but she can't post images. I dont really think that's entirely fair, but I can totally understand how you feel about it considering that it WAS Sarah who just dropped it all to begin with, leaving you with an incomplete comic and having to finish all of the Chapters by yourself in text alone. I think that perhaps the price for the burden she helped to place on you by having rejected what was left of the project should be that she withold posting any characters that she may own personally. It doesn't really hurt her THAT much to just not post the drawings until you've finished.

In Summary. While I do not think that it is fair that you get to post chapters and she not get to post character pictures, I do not think that its too much to ask that since she dropped everything on you, that she should with-hold posting the characters pictures so as to not overshadow the hard work you put into writing your chapters. After all, writing a whole chapter of a whole story is much harder than laboring over a computer with a tablet in hand, drawing and coloring a picture.

Just as a side note--From what I could tell so far with the story of Sublunary, you are a wonderful writer, as she is an artist, and I was dissappointed that I would never again get to see Sublunary as a comic--but I shall live. I wish you the best in your problems with this, as well as in writing the chapters.

Oh.. did you ever think of maybe buying the characters off of her??

(Reply to this) (Thread)

neverless
2006-02-12 09:54 am UTC (link)

Thank you for your words. She agreed to let me do what I wanted with her chars in regards to the story, that was a free offer by her, not something I had to ask for, just in case you thought I pushed to have her allow me to write them.

I fully doubt she would sell her characters, and if she ever would it'd be for a price I'd never be able ot afford. They mean too much to her, I think, and just as you couldn't offer me a price for Oliver (no one could, he's MY baby) I couldn' offer her one for Eekie or the others. I'd love to be able to have them as my own, no lie, but they're hers. ^_^

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	RE: >.< rozeukun 2006-02-13 12:01 am UTC (link)
	sorry.... that was me.. just my idiocy forgot to log in.... I still stand by my oppinion of wanting to see you girls be friends again. (Reply to this)

Being frank.

sapphirewarrior
2006-02-15 01:35 am UTC (link)

I'll be frank not to be mean, but to show some tough love and reasoning.

From a professional stance I agree she shouldn't be able to use those characters for profit. Fan art was never a crime though so she can make fan art that is not profiting only her in any form. That would be the same as the story; any profit it makes is still shared.

Today's lessons: Have these things in a written contract before starting a project. You NEVER know what will happen. Even the best of relationships can have unexpected turns.

I would not start another project if I were either one of them without taking themselves more seriously and get professional. I have not finished my own comic or made it more public due to the lack of contract. My other project I have with a different friend/partner looks more hopeful with a contract in mind and an understanding of rights to one's characters.

Once you agree to put your character in a work it is now part of that world and should not be used outside for profit unless other wised agreed on before or afterwards if one is lucky enough to be able to have a civilized conversation. Me and my friend have used the main characters before and can again we agreed. Any new characters added to this story will be shared.

So I wish the best to you both and I hope an agreement can be settled. If not, I suggest dropping it completely for both of you. Sadly that will be the only answer if agreement cannot be made. It is better then one getting serious without the other and lawyers getting involved. Good luck!

(Reply to this)

arquillia
2006-02-16 05:32 am UTC (link)

Messy, sort of like a divorce, which is really what it is. I understand it has to be hard, when venturing into a project like this, you just don't think of it ever happening. . . when two friends or two loved ones work on a project together I doubt the first thing in their mind is "what will we do if it doesn't work out?" While it would be intelligent to draw up a contract of some kind before starting something like Sublunary, or anything else involving multiple people, it isn't something we really think of needing or falling back on.
I have two differing thoughts and opinions on the subject and they are from two completely different sides of the spectrum, both as an artist and creator and also as a fan.
As a creator I think that Sarah has every right to continue to draw her Sublunary characters and yours as long as it is under certain specific grounds. Any and all Sublunary art or writing may not be used for personal gain of either side unless it is shared equally among the two parties; say a 25% cut of total profit to Sarah if you published Sublunary novels and the same to you if she were to produce Sublunary prints, ect. On the other hand, I don't think art of her characters in either a pre, post or Sublunary timeframe should be kept from the general public; it is, after all her work and as long as she is not making profit off of it I don't see the harm. The same goes for artwork of your characters. . . as long as she considers it fan art and gives credit to you, as the characters' owner. You could treat her in the same way, by giving her credit for her characters and contribution to any Sublunary writing you do, constantly reminding your audience that while you are the one doing the writing, she is still in ownership of some of the characters and half of the story.
Now, as a fan, any Sublunary is good Sublunary. I love her artwork, your writing talents are amazing, so anything whether it has continuity, whether it jumps ahead or falls back from where the story left off is something I would always have interest in. I don't think continued artwork or writing would be a bad distraction anyway, might keep lurkers off the tagboard for a few days, eh?
Well, I've rambled on a long ways, so. . . I'll shut my yap for now. I hope you don't think my tone is condescending or unwarrented, I'm just trying to give you and Sarah both my perspective on the situation.
Much love, and happy Valentines day!

~Arquillia

Happy Valentines Day From Oroboros!

(Reply to this) (Thread)

yume_no_kareta
2006-02-17 03:20 am UTC (link)

*hug* I'm so sorry about all of this, both Reena AND Sarah.

Honestly, I agree with Arquillia in that you both should share the profit(s).

It is resonable that Reena asked Sarah not to post Subby artwork, but also not at the same time. After all, this was Sarah's project as much as it is/was (?)Reena's.

I think that Sarah should be allowed to post whatever she wants on OTHER, non-Subby related, websites. Sarah should also give Reena credit where it is due (IE, if there was a character that Reena created and Sarah gave a face, or something). Also, what I do not think is fair is that Sarah dropped the project, yet she is making money off her art. If she is going to continue creating Subby related art, then she shouldn't make money off it. Or, she could split the profit with Reena, like Arquilla suggested. I think that would be fair. Mind you, not a 50/50 split, but a 75/25 or 80/20 split or something of that nature...

However, I don't know how this idea would translate to real-life, seeing as you guys are not getting along at the moment...Nor do I think either of you would go for it...But I'm sick of lurking and this is what I came up with...So I pitched in my two cents.

I hope you two come to an accord of somesort. I know times are hard, but both of you, please, try to remain civil towards the other...

I love Subby, I and I pray for better things to come for both of you, Reena, Sarah. Good luck. <3

*Hugs*

(Reply to this) (Parent)

geek_goddez
2006-02-17 09:20 pm UTC (link)

I have to say, I'm very upset. It took me a long time to find a good web series to get into and now I find out there's no more!

Because I'm a lazy and terrible person, I don't know what exactly is going on but I want to say PLEASE MORE SUBBY! I loved the story line and the artwork, both were very well done. And come on, I've had Arcana quit on me... I NEED MY FIX! *sniffles*

Can't we all just get along and help me with my Yaoi addiction?! ^_^

(Reply to this) (Thread)

yume_no_kareta
2006-02-22 10:20 pm UTC (link)

There's no more Subby for a reason. The artist and author are not getting along, for whatever reason. Its not really our business why, and unfortunately whatever caused their disagreements will probably keep them from continuing Subby as a comic.

I fully support and respect that. I fully support and respect, not to mention love, the authoress and artist on whatever they end up deciding to do.

As for you needing a "yaoi" fix...I can't be much help there. This was the only yaoi comic I read (I'm more of a shonen-ai fan, but I don't have any comics for that either, just fanfiction). I suggest you google search or something. Yaoi is anything but hard to find.

I'm sorry if I sound mean, I'm not trying to. I'm just a bit annoyed. I thought everyone was past trying to beg and guilt the author and artist into working together again. But one should never assume...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

geek_goddez
2006-02-23 12:29 am UTC (link)

No! Not mean at all, it is kinda hard to get a tone across in type. Which is my problem, I was trying to make light of the situation. I have other things to read. I also wanted the author and artist to know how much I have appreciated their work and although I am saddened by the ending of Sublunary, I understand that they're human and I only wish them the best of luck. I also must mention that I do wish they'd reconcil and come back, since they do have fans to think of as well, such is the duty of a well liked author and artist. I respect their descion but I also applaued those who are "begging and guilting" because it shows that they really like the comic and wish for its immediate return.

To the author and artist: I have greatly enjoyed your work! Thanks so much for your time and your skill.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

riokun
2006-04-04 12:26 am UTC (link)

Well, as I'm not sure I can completely understand this whole fiasco, I'm not sure how much my opinion would help but... as the writer in a writer/artist combo myself, I somewhat think I understand... if only a little, do to my artist being my best friend, with no romantic relations [if you ignore that I flirt with her every two minutes].

I believe you have every right to say you wish to go without an outsider - a different artist - because, as someone else did mention, they wouldn't fully understand, and they run the risk of misinterpretation of your writing style, of what you mean when you say this or that... the clumsy little things it takes a while of working together to sort out. ["Bathing leisurely in the sun" "...He's having a bath?" "@_@ No, that's my fancy way of saying he's sun tanning." "...Well, he's having a bath now, because I'm too lazy to redraw it." "Fine, but I'm only agreeing because Keske molests him because of it."]

I guess from the view point I've managed to collect from this side, and the other side, I have no real advice... I hope that the two of you can work things out, despite whether or not the comic continues, or whatever else continues... I'm tired of shaking my head at people taking sides, debating who is being childish/unreasonable and why and whatever else...

Best wishes, and best of luck;

~Amy

(Reply to this)

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